The Competence Institute

Crafting Confident Learners: The Power of Personalized Education with Ann Cigainero

Ryan Kimball + Mike Tyler

Unlock the secrets of transformative education with Ann Cigainero, a visionary educator with over thirty years of dedication to study technology. Ann captivates us with her pioneering journey in creating a school founded on L. Ron Hubbard's educational principles, where personalized learning and nearly perfect comprehension aren't just goals—they're the standard. As we discuss the profound impact that a custom-tailored approach can have, especially before the pivotal third and fourth grades, you’ll witness how easing academic pressures can lead to incredible strides in a child's learning journey.

Feel inspired as Ann shares heartwarming success stories of children, including those with special needs, who've found their academic footing through the power of individualized attention. We delve into strategies that reignite a passion for learning among students weighed down by study fatigue, and how these personalized plans not only boost literacy but also build confidence and independence. The joy of witnessing a child's transition from grappling with the alphabet to the triumph of reading on their own is a testament to the undeniable benefits of education that speaks to each student's unique needs.

Join us in a reflection on the deep fulfillment that comes from employing study technology to break down learning barriers. This episode isn't just about showcasing Ann's expertise; it's an homage to the educators who, with passion and patience, equip students of all abilities with the keys to unlock their potential. The excitement we feel in sharing these moments of achievement is infectious, and we invite you to connect with Ann's transformative methods and celebrate the victories that shape confident, independent learners for life.

If you want to reach out to Ann to find out more about her tutoring services, email her here: Anns_tutoring4kids@cox.net.

© 2024 The Competence Institute. All Rights Reserved. The Competence Institute is a non-profit educational organization and does not discriminate on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, disability, age, nationality or ethnic origin in administering student admissions or any of its policies, programs or activities. COMPETENCE INSTITUTE is a trademark and service mark owned by The Competence Institute, a division of Team Tyler USA.

Applied Scholastics and the Applied Scholastics Open Book Design are trademarks and service marks owned by Association for Better Living and Education International and are used with its permission.

Grateful acknowledgement is made to L. Ron Hubbard library for permission to reproduce a selection from the copyrighted works of L. Ron Hubbard.




Ryan:

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of our podcast for The Competence Institute. Today I'm super excited to have Ann Cigainero with us. She is a longtime teacher and tutor - over 32 years actually, she's been educating children, tutoring them, using the study technology. So, lots of experience, lots of amazing stories to share with us. Looking forward to hearing about that, and she's going to tell us a little bit about herself and what she's doing with the study technology. So, Hi, Ann! (Ann: Hi!) So, I wanted to get started out - if you could just tell us a little bit about what introduced you to the study technology.

Ann:

All right. I basically grew up in a household of teachers. My mom and dad were teachers, my sister became one and my brother became one, and so I was definitely exposed from a young age to going into classrooms and being around all that. And when I had my - my girl, I wanted her - to make sure she had a really good education. And so, I knew about the study technology of L. Ron Hubbard, and so I decided to join my friends. I had two friends and we opened a school, so we all wanted our kids to get a good education.

Ryan:

Wow! Yeah, that's quite a purpose and quite a big action to take! (Ann: Yeah!) That's so awesome! So, this school - it used the study technology exclusively, or?

Ann:

Yeah, that's - yeah, we had a whole program of curriculum that we used and then we just use the curriculum and used study technology to teach the kids so that we were sure to stay on top of any problems that they had and handle everything appropriately, so that they didn't get stuck in the past of not understanding things and really bringing up to as close to 100% comprehension as we could.

Ryan:

Wow, that's awesome! Okay, and then so you started this school. What was the beginning like? How did it work, if you don't mind telling us the story a little?

Ann:

Let's see - it was exciting! (Ryan: Yeah!) We started out and we had - I think we had probably about 30 kids in the beginning and then we just learned a lot about parents and about what parents wanted and how to go about teaching. And we had teachers, we had other teachers there, we taught and it just grew - I don't know - it just grew into a bigger and bigger school. It was never a large - very large school. I think we had - probably the most was a hundred kids. We only went through - in the beginning we only went through fourth grade and then we moved up through seventh grade.

Ryan:

Wow.

Ann:

Yeah, we wanted to make sure that we got the basics in because usually around fourth grade we've noticed that kids start going off the rails a bit if they're going to go off the rails and it's around third, fourth grade that happens. So we wanted to make sure those basics were really in so they had a good, stable foundation.

Ryan:

Nice, get them through that hump. (Ann: That's right - exactly!) Very cool! Okay, and you mentioned that you found out what the parents wanted and obviously, if you grew to 100 students, you were able to provide that. What types of things were you able to provide using the study technology?

Ann:

In the beginning, we had a lot of kids that were not doing well in school and so basically, we would interview the parents and then interview the children and see what was happening with them, and then they ended up getting programmed for whatever their situation was. Some kids are great at reading and terrible at math, or terrible at everything - whatever it was. Then we would find out where they were. Depending on their age - some kids were a couple of years behind on their ability to read. Some were doing okay. So we would - the program would take - would be - it would put them wherever they were currently with that subject. So if they were way behind in math, then we would bring them up. We'd start them wherever they were. Let's say you have a third grader and they really only understood first grade math. You'd find out what were the areas of trouble and fix all those, and that's where the study technology came in.

Ryan:

Right.

Ann:

And then fix them up and just bring them up to the grade level as fast as they could go or wanted to go.

Ryan:

Wow, nice, nice! And so, this sounds very customized and able to be applied to that individual student's needs.

Ann:

Exactly. Yeah, that's what we did.

Ryan:

Okay, that's so cool! And what were some of the successes that you noticed by using that method and helping the students and whatnot?

Ann:

Basically, the first thing that I noticed is the relief that the students would have. They - because of the pressure was taken off of - they were supposed to know certain things already and just keep moving ahead, move on over, move on ahead, just gut it out and move ahead. And they were relieved to know that it's okay that they didn't understand and we were going to fix it, we were going to work with them and help them to understand. So that was a big one, yeah, and the parents, of course then were relieved. Parents would be a little bit nervous about oh no, they have to go back that far! But they - once they - once we figured out where the bottom was, then you could just move them up really nicely.

Ryan:

Yeah, absolutely! That's so cool! I felt a little relief in myself when you said that - I'm like, remembering my years of schooling! I can imagine a student who actually got to experience that being amazing, and I know when I was growing up there was always a stigma if somebody got held back. But this is different! It sounds like it's very - you could be totally where you need to be in three or four subjects, but there's one that needs to be handled, so you get to go work on that one while continuing with the others, if I understand correctly.

Ann:

That's exactly right, yeah. And then if it was - reading was a pretty huge subject, because you have to read every other subject, basically, so they would have a strong purpose for getting better at their reading. And then, one thing that I always love - reading, that's like my favorite - that and geography and teaching that and helping kids with that - and they would have a purpose for it. So it's much easier to teach that when they have an actual reason to learn it. And then also to find subjects that they're interested in, to learn how to read. Like little kids, like four or five years old, if they're struggling a bit - or six years old - they're just not that interested. They've been forced through the reading program, whatever program they were working on.

Ann:

I'm thinking of a six-year-old that I had one time and he did not want to read, and so I said, okay, that's fine, we're gonna just go to the library and I'll read to you. Yeah, so I started reading - I found out what he liked, things that he liked, and then I would just get those books, and it was, they were easy books and I would read these books to him and then I just - he just became interested because he liked the certain things - like, he loved dogs. So we started reading Henry and Mudge, which is - which are great stories about dog - a dog, right, and just things like that. So just finding whatever they were interested in and making it fun.

Ryan:

Nice.

Ann:

Yeah, that's the best thing, I think, to do with them is find out what they like and what they want, rather than trying to force them because they have to or because they should.

Ryan:

Yeah, that makes sense. I think that's pretty applicable across life, into the future as well, right? (Ann: Exactly!) Yeah, so if you start out that way, you're a few steps ahead of most of us who grind our way through school and whatnot. So, very cool, that's so awesome! And then, you've mentioned this a few times - this idea of having a purpose for what you study and establishing a reason for doing that - how key was that when you were working with kids?

Ann:

Pretty key. Some of them that were older were already used to having to do things just because their parents wanted them to or they were supposed to, so that was the purpose in itself, where they were expected to - so it's okay, well, I better get this thing understood. And they were so much more relaxed about it because they actually had an understanding of the subject, rather than that feeling of not knowing what the teacher's talking about, just that feeling in the chest and just the tension and suppression of upset and grief. That going away and feeling relaxed and able to just be comfortable is huge for a lot of kids - I think a lot of adults as well - just someone not expecting them to know what they don't know. And then, pretty much all the kids were good with each other. We didn't have bullies or kids teasing, and if they did, it would stop pretty quickly because they would just see that wasn't - that wasn't the popular thing to do, because they all pretty much understood that they were there to learn.

Ryan:

Nice. (Ann: That makes sense.) Yeah, totally! And I know - I have a nephew who is - experienced difficulty in school because of bullying and not to date myself, but when I grew up, this bullying thing wasn't really an issue - at least not where I went to school, and wasn't something we heard of. But I hear of it so much from parents and teachers and kids - my nephew. Do you think that your ability to create that learning atmosphere without all the stress that you've been mentioning could be helpful in this bullying situation we find ourselves with these days?

Ann:

Absolutely! Yeah, for sure, and it's - it goes both ways. You have the victim and then you have the bully, and they're pretty much - I found is - they're suffering from the same type of thing, where they're either feeling really intimidated because they don't understand, or they're feeling aggressive and they want to take it out on someone because they don't understand.

Ryan:

Yeah - no, that makes sense! Different personalities manifest the phenomena of rough study situations in different ways, for sure! I think that's pretty true all through life, now that I think about it actually. (Ann: Yeah) So, yeah - so the microcosm to macrocosm, we go from school to the world, right?

Ann:

That's true, yeah.

Ryan:

Yeah, awesome. Okay, good to know. I just wanted to ask that because it came to mind as something that was applicable to what you were saying. But I really like to hear about what you do now. I know you do tutoring and what you started with there evolved into this career you have now. Can you tell us a little bit about that evolution and what you're up to now?

Ann:

Yeah, when we had the school, I was a teacher in the school and it naturally evolved to where you would push me up, into becoming maybe the dean of the school and up to becoming the director of the school, and I would - I had my office. I was giving it a go and every time the boss would come into my office, I'd either have a child in there and I'd be working with the child on whatever subject, or she couldn't find me because I was in the classroom. I really didn't want to do that. I wanted to work with the kids. That was my true love! So, basically, my child grew up, she got older, she left, she graduated and I stayed for a while and then I just really wanted to work with parents and children, directly, because I had a lot of - I worked with the parents, but I mostly worked with the children. So I decided to start a tutoring business.

Ann:

(Ryan: Nice) Yeah, and I was fortunate to do - L. Ron Hubbard, Mr. Hubbard has a lot of information about children and parents and I actually did a course called the Youth Specialist Course where I learned about children and parents and relationships between them and also about education, and so I understood how important it was for the whole family to be doing well, especially if kids were having a lot of trouble - it could bleed into everybody's lives in the family. I did the Youth Specialist Course and got myself set up for that and then I began to tutor a while after that, and just work with the parents and work with the kids, and that's basically how I started out with that.

Ryan:

Nice! That's so interesting! You've mentioned a lot about not just teaching them the study technology and helping them duplicate their studies and all of that, but also this interactive need and setup with the parents and you learning about the relationship there. How does that impact you as a - as an educator, as a tutor and whatnot? What is - how does that fit together?

Ann:

Parents know a lot about their kids, and so it helps me to work with them and it's fun in a way, because sometimes parents will forget. They'll talk to me about their child when I first meet them, and then I always want to interview the child away from the parent, because they may have a different viewpoint than the parent on what the problem is or exactly how they want to handle it. A lot of times parents think they already know what the situation is, so sometimes I can give them more information about the situation after I interview the child, and they're sometimes surprised at what I find out, and so that helps. So I can have both the parent's viewpoint and then also the child's viewpoint.

Ryan:

Nice! Makes sense. I know, in growing up - obviously, you get through school, you do what you need to do. And my parents - they were always involved but they didn't really get deeply involved. It sounds like your approach would get the parents more involved, and do you find yourself educating the parents on the study technology a bit as well?

Ann:

Yeah, it ends up happening because they're curious as to how I get the child to do what I get them to do. And then also, along with that, there's courses that I took where they - they do - their willingness does want to be consulted. They want to be consulted about certain things and not have to have the pressure of you've got to do this just because I said so. So I introduce that idea and I make it kind of fun. This is your education, it's not my education, it's not your parents' education, this is yours. So let's make it more personal for you - and that's a new idea for the parents a lot of times. They love it!

Ryan:

Yeah.

Ann:

But it's different.

Ann:

(Ryan: Yeah, for sure - I can see it now, like, okay, I'm going to use this to get vegetables eaten and you know - all sorts of things, right? Chores will now be incentivized or whatever.) Ann: Exactly! Yeah, and also, part of it is too, where they learn to honor and respect their parents, along the way (Ryan: Oh, wow!) - whatever degree I can get them to do that, but they just - they calm down. I think what happens is, once they're happy with their education - because they're spending hours, how many hours? Six to plus hours a day, at least five days a week, that's their job, and if they're miserable and anxious and hate it, that spills out into their - the other parts of their lives. So if I can calm that down and get them to be happy with themselves and with learning, then that changes pretty much the whole dynamic of the family.

Ryan:

Yeah, absolutely! It's like therapy for the family! That's so awesome! Okay, great! So, if you are working with someone now, what are some of the situations you find yourself handling and what are some of the successes you've had in doing that?

Ann:

Well, I've worked with different kids. I've worked with special needs children.

Ann:

(Ryan: Okay) Ann: Just - they just happened to come across my door and one of them - the mom really wanted her to learn to read.

Ann:

She just couldn't - she couldn't - actually both of them, come to think of it, and they were really having trouble with reading and so I just backed it up and I think I ended up teaching them the sounds of the alphabet so that they really knew the sounds, and then they knew that the sounds represented parts of words and - just really took it back to basics. And then they read things they were interested in and then we just went from there. And one of them - I remember the mom, she had a success where she said that she could not believe, after about four months of me working, that her son would go around and read signs and was excited about being able to read. And he ended up growing up and learning how to ride the bus on his own because he could read the signs and read the schedules and all that and then - just basic reading ability, so that he could survive on his own.

Ann:

Yeah, and it wasn't dependent on mom. And then the little girl, she grew up and she she made it in - she was in school but she had - in a special needs school, just because she was a bit slow, not as fast as the average person, and - but she did pretty well. She was great socially and felt good about herself because she could learn how to read.

Ryan:

Nice, nice! It sounds like you're taking people who have maybe, at least in some cases, like you just talked about, have a little bit of a disability or something, but after you apply your tools with study technology and getting things understood and broken down to basics, that's almost now not there anymore and the person's just able to absorb and read information. Is that true?

Ann:

Yeah, to a degree, yeah. If they have a physical disability, they don't necessarily get all the way up to the same level, but they're able to function on their own and that's the thing. They're much more independent, and yeah! - so, in that way, absolutely - and they're confident. Their confidence just soars and that's a beautiful thing. (Ryan: Yeah!) They really - they trust themselves and, yeah! (Ryan: That's so cool!)

Ryan:

I actually was just reading a quote I think it was, from Martin Luther King, about how education should not only be bringing of more information, but building confidence and establishing purpose, and it sounds like what you do really lends itself towards that as well.

Ann:

Yeah, well, that's the beauty of this technology. It really is.

Ryan:

Okay, great! I know you mentioned you had some specific successes that you were excited to share with us. Can you tell us a little bit about some of those?

Ann:

Sure, let's see here - he was trying to get through a chemistry course and he had a funny thing that he did where he would - he said that he would handle himself falling asleep while he studied with - he had a satchel of - they were - I'm trying to think what they were, like an herb or a, an essence, and he would smell them to wake himself up.

Ryan:

Oh, wow!

Ann:

And I had never seen or heard of anything like this before.

Ryan:

Me neither!

Ann:

So, yeah, so he actually, on his own, learned the study technology to apply to himself, and he was surprised to find out that actually he could use this technology to handle the sleepiness, this tiredness that he felt. And so then he did, and he - I'll read you what he said. (Ryan: Okay.) He said this - the semester is going along great. The study technology you shared with me has been working so well with understanding the scientific journals that I'm reading. So far, I have read five scientific journals and wrote reports on them, and I've noticed that I can extend the period of time that I study much longer because my concentration has improved so much. (Ryan: Wow!) As far as chemistry, my comprehension is outstanding.

Ryan:

Wow, how cool!

Ann:

Pretty fun!

Ryan:

Yeah! It makes it not such a chore, like you were saying! Obviously he has to get through these materials. (Ann: Right.) It makes it - yeah, fun, and something you can have a win at! (Ann: That's right!) Yeah, I can remember falling asleep studying, so I think better than coffee and stimulants, using some study technology! Nice! Okay, great! Tell us some more!

Ann:

Let's see - I have one from a high school girl and this was from the mom, and she said, My daughter's challenge was math and when she started working with Ann she was three to four grades behind. She simply despised math. She had consistently bad grades, mostly Fs, and just wasn't motivated to learn. With Ann's help, she was able to learn, understand and finish the year on a strong note with the grade of a B minus. The improvement transpired in my daughter's personality and approach to her homework. And now when I ask her to do her math homework, she replies, I already did it! (Ryan: Wow!)

Ryan:

Wow!

Ann:

So that was a win from the parents.

Ryan:

Yeah! I'm sure the girl there is having some pretty major wins in life too!

Ann:

Yeah, she did. She had a lot of fun. She really started understanding. It was pretty, pretty neat. She was very bright actually and it really - it didn't take a lot, honestly, to help her, just had to clear up some of the past things, and then she just grabbed a hold and just started running with it.

Ryan:

Makes sense. Do you find that usually to be true? You just hone in on a few things and you get them cleared up and everything starts to roll.

Ann:

Yeah, it normally does, and the fewer the subjects they have trouble with, the faster it goes. But yeah, it's - usually they improve a lot faster than anybody would ever think that they would, especially if they're several grades behind. But yeah, you just get in, get some of the basic things cleared up and it all comes back and comes - their memory almost comes back to what they had learned before.

Ryan:

Yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with that phenomena! Yes, absolutely! I just had a question pop into my mind, I want to ask you. I've had some people who were interested in getting better at a certain subject or doing this or doing that, and when you mention tutoring, they're like - Oh yeah, we've used tutors, we are - he doesn't need more help, he just needs to stick to - he needs to stop watching so much Xbox or whatever, right? What would you say about that? I mean, you have a unique - without getting into all the details of what you do, you have a unique approach. How would you answer somebody who says something like that?

Ann:

That's a good question. I'm trying to think how I would answer that.

Ryan:

Yeah, not to put you on the spot, it was just - I had the question. I figure I've got you here. I'm going to ask!

Ann:

Absolutely!

Ryan:

Yeah.

Ann:

I listen to the student - what they have to say - and I don't go in with the attitude that I already know the subject and I know it all, and I'm going to teach them.

Ann:

I am going to teach them the subject. What I do is, I work with them and I find out what area they feel that they have trouble with and then - because they know, they have an idea, they know that they don't - they don't know how to multiply or they don't know how to divide. So then, I use the study technology and I know that there's a gradient of information that's been skipped over. So I take them back to before that, before they were having trouble, and I clear up areas before that, because it's not where they think it is. It's not the division or it's not the multiplication, it's something before that which is a lot of times addition, or - the killer is regrouping. That whole subject - that comes up more times than I can count. They just lose it at regrouping and they think they have, but then they don't really have it. So that's part of the study technology, is taking it back to where before they thought they understood it and then getting that area understood.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Ann:

And it's not just memorize and just do it and gut it out. It's, do you understand this? Show me how you understand it. Okay, now demonstrate it to me, show me. And they can! And they brighten up and they're happy! It's just - it's not drudgery, it's fun!

Ryan:

Yes, absolutely! Yeah, and I know, personally I've experienced the magic of - you think there's something going on and I have all my attention on this one thing and then somebody comes and has me look a little bit before it and then all of a sudden that thing I thought I didn't know, makes total sense! So, I - just from my having experienced that and then working with my partner at The Competence Institute, Mike Tyler, who's also an expert at doing that - it's pretty magical! People think, oh, well, that that sounds like common sense, but really, there's such - and you're very - you put it in a very easy manner of understanding it - but there's such a precise way of noticing where that spot is and finding it and helping the student with that exact thing and not something else, that - to me - that's really where the magic is in using the study technology.

Ann:

Absolutely, yeah!

Ann:

And it's funny too, because it really - they feel so happy! They're so relieved and they're - it's just the right thing and there's nothing wrong with them. And that's one thing that I have said so many times to children. I said there's nothing wrong with your ability to learn. You have no learning disorder. There's nothing wrong! It's how you were taught or how you were not taught. It's because you were - you went past things, because the class went ahead and it's not you! So, all we have to do is go back, find what you didn't get, get it understood and boom! And there's that! It's actually really simple.

Ryan:

Awesome, very cool, very cool. I interrupted our success succession stories there. Do you have any more you'd like to share?

Ann:

Let's see, I think I have one that kind of goes along with what

Ann:

So, this mother wrote a success and she said, My son has been tutoring with Ann for the past few months. When he was attending public school, he did not have the motivation to progress in his studies. There were many things that were affecting him negatively, that did not allow him to focus. That resulted in him not understanding what he was being taught and eventually falling behind. With Nicholas's approval, I made the decision to start the process of homeschool, so Ann began to tutor him. It was the best decision I made. She showed him the value of learning and soon my son started loving to learn and increasing his knowledge. He doesn't feel insecure anymore and he's gained many confidences. That's basically what it is. It's just saying that I'm patient and caring, but actually it's not even that. It's just simply finding what was wrong and handling it.

Ryan:

And having the know-how on how to handle it! You seem to be very - just confident that you're going to be able to handle whatever comes up.

Ann:

Yeah, I do! I do feel confident and I feel confident that I can also get them to start using it as well. And this exact same boy - I had him - I worked with him for a few years and he ended up going to a school because he wanted to have a social life, right? So he stopped homeschooling and he told me - I still tutored him - and he told me that he - there was a boy that was causing a lot of trouble in class and so he took him aside, and he talked to him and he said, you have a misunderstood word in what you're studying and I'm going to help you find it.

Ryan:

Oh my gosh!

Ann:

And he did!

Ryan:

Wow! (Ann: Yeah!) That is incredible! That's, that's the ripple effect of what you're doing, just spreading out that calm.

Ann:

Yeah, yeah! That was fun, that was really fun!

Ryan:

So fun, yes, that's great! I'm inspired! I'm going to send some people your way - I got some people in mind, actually. (Ann: Oh great!) Thank you so much for sharing all those! Were there any other topics that you wanted to cover, or success stories related to certain areas that you wanted to go over?

Ann:

I can't really think of anything. I think I've - I just - I don't know if I mentioned this before, but a lot of times when I have a child sent to me, they are very introspective. They are - they think there's something wrong with them, they're lacking confidence in their ability and they don't - they feel very insecure. And just by applying the study technology, their confidence comes up. They begin to look outward, not inward at themselves - what's wrong - and they just lose that whole problem. It's not there anymore and they just become these bright, beautiful children that they always were. But they're acting that way now.

Ryan:

So amazing, just great! It's really - it's a new era of education, I feel, with what people like yourself are doing to bring this study technology - it just creates a whole new atmosphere.

Ann:

That's true, yeah!

Ryan:

Yeah! I've had this question pop through my head as we've been talking here a few times, so I want to ask it before we end off. This is just me - being, having the personality I have, but I would think that what you're doing, like engaging with students one-on-one, really helping them when they're moving slow and whatnot, it seems to be a large patience factor and willingness to engage and whatnot. Some people find that very hard to do, but I can see, just by the way you're talking about it, like you light up and it's something you really enjoy. Can you speak to that? What it is that makes that so passionate of a subject for you and how you navigate it?

Ann:

I don't know the answer to that, honestly! It could be just because I know the study technology and I know these barriers that children and adults run up against, with not being able to learn. I know the solution. (Ryan: Right) And I can help them with it, and I think that maybe that's really the bottom line is that I have confidence in my ability to help them because I know this technology and I have no doubt about it being able to help them with learning and study. And if they want to accomplish something, I know that they can accomplish it and it's - there's nothing wrong with them. They're fully capable - even the ones with the physical disabilities, the ones that - they were able to accomplish what they wanted to accomplish. So, I think that's probably what you see.

Ryan:

I think so! Okay, great! Well, thank you so much, Ann! I really appreciate you sharing all that with us! And for everyone who's listening, if you have any questions for Ann, the information on how to contact her will be in the show notes, and how to get a hold of her and ask your questions, that will all be there. You can always reach out to us and we can direct you to her as well. But again, thank you so much for being on, Ann, we look forward to talking to you more!

Ann:

Thank you, it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed it very much!

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